NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WTVF) — They want to go back to an America before the civil rights movement "ruined everything." They want to kick out legal immigrants even if they became U.S. citizens decades ago. And they want to put women back where they think they belong.
If necessary to achieve their goals, they are prepared to accept a Protestant dictator who will rule according to their own interpretation of what it means to be a Christian.
Now, an exclusive NewsChannel 5 investigation has discovered that those Christian nationalists have set their sights on a remote Middle Tennessee county, hoping to attract hundreds, even thousands, of like-minded people from across the country as part of efforts, in the words of one activist, to “radicalize Main Street.”
That effort — with Christian nationalist podcasters Andrew Isker and C. Jay Engel leading the way — is targeting tiny Jackson County and the county seat of Gainesboro, located about 90 minutes northeast of Nashville in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. Census data shows Jackson County is home to an estimated 12,711 people.
"We're building a town, right? We're building a community there,”Isker said during a July podcast when he and Engel first announced their move to Tennessee.
And they are recruiting others to join them, hoping to spread their extremist ideology across the state of Tennessee.
"The question is, is there room for like-minded Christians and patriots in Tennessee? Yes, there's an imperative for like-minded Christians to gather and fight with us,”Engel said during an October podcast from Gainesboro.
"We need Christian nationalism in one state.”
Isker and Engel deny that their views are racist, while also claiming that “the very concept of ‘racism’ was literally a creation of communists.”
But NewsChannel 5's three-month investigation — reviewing hours of podcasts and poring over hundreds of social media posts — found that their views are not so different from the ideas espoused by the neo-Nazis and other white supremacists seen marching down Nashville streets in the past year, although they dress up their controversial notions with intellectual buzz words and call it Christian.
"If you strip it all down, they're saying the same thing – they are just saying it in a way that may be more acceptable to people,” said Kevin Riggs, pastor of Franklin Community Church. “At the end of the day, it's the same tired ideology of white supremacy."
Riggs, who has been sounding the alarm for years about the rise of Christian nationalism in Middle Tennessee, described Christian nationalism as "a Christianized-type of Sharia law.”
“It doesn't matter whether you are a Christian. It doesn't matter whether you are an atheist. It doesn't matter if you are a Buddhist. It doesn't matter what, you are going to be forced to live by this narrow interpretation of Christian principles," he said.
Another Moscow, Idaho?
In its approach, the Jackson County project appears similar to the much-publicized efforts by Christian nationalist pastor Doug Wilson to turn Moscow, Idaho, into a “church town.” Isker graduated from a ministerial training program created by Wilson’s Christ Church.
The real estate component of the project is led by two related companies, New Founding and RidgeRunner, that promise buyers the potential to “be part of building a community with people who share your values.” The companies began with an initial project in nearby Burkesville, Kentucky, before announcing the Jackson County phase earlier this month.
New Founding CEO Nate Fischer has declared the principles of the U.S. Constitution are “long gone” and that Christian nationalism “represents a positive Christian vision for government.” Fischer’s partner, Josh Abbotoy, has claimed to have mixed feelings on the issue, although he tweeted that “America is going to need a Protestant Franco.”
Francisco Franco was a Catholic dictator who ruled over Spain from 1939 to 1975 and made Catholicism the official religion of the country.
Reached by text for his comment, Abbotoy responded: "lol you're such a hack."
According to property records, Abbotoy bought up 500 acres in the rolling hills on the Macon-Jackson County line, while a related corporation purchased an additional 100 acres near downtown Gainesboro. That corporation has also bought a small office building on East Hull Avenue in Gainesboro.
Isker and Engel, who are setting up a podcast studio in that office building, appear to have been recruited as ambassadors for the project. The pair claim their “Contra Mundum” podcast is the "Number One Christian Nationalist Podcast in the World.”
America for 'Heritage Americans'
As Isker and Engel see it, the only people who have a legitimate right to a homeland in the United States are “Heritage Americans,” which they typically depict on their social media posts with old Norman Rockwell images of White people, especially White men.
In a post that was pinned to the top of his X profile, Engel explained that his concept of Heritage America "affirms the domination and pre-eminence of European derived peoples, their institutions and their way of life." He also defined it as “an actual body of institutions created by a nexus of specific people, dominated and defined by Anglos and their children.”
Still, Engel said his idea of Heritage America also "includes the blacks of the Old South.”
"I would imagine, in most of those Norman Rockwell pictures, there aren't any depictions of people who look like me,” said Chris Williamson, the African-American pastor of the multiracial Strong Tower Bible Church in Nashville.
“According to them, if you are a descendant of slaves, you get to stay," NewsChannel 5 Investigates noted.
"So, they are defining my legacy, my entire legacy really on slavery,” Williamson responded. “I get to stay — even though I was brought here against my will and treated horrible through chattel slavery for nearly 250 years, but that's my heritage."
Even then, Engel wrote that his acceptance of Black Americans as “Heritage Americans” assumes they will not try to "leverage their experience for the purposes of political guilt."
"Really, you want to keep me in that place of inferior status with you,” Williamson responded. “I'm OK as long as I stay in line and accept how you define me. But these days of White men defining Black people, they're not happening anymore."
Pastor Riggs said he would put Isker and Engle into the category of “white Christian nationalists,” although the pair insists their views are about culture, not race.
'The 1960s ruined everything'
Still, Engel complained in one podcast that “all of our heroes were way more racist than we're allowed to be today.”
The two White men have denounced the efforts of Civil Rights leader Martin Luther King – and the Civil Rights movement, in general.
“You cannot have both MLK and Heritage America," Engel wrote in one social media post.
Isker argued — in all caps — “WE SHOULD TURN CIVIL RIGHTS BACK TO THE STATES."
They have celebrated images of Whites-only diners in the 1950s, with Engel proclaiming that "the 1960s ruined everything" and defending racial discrimination.
"Yeah, it's called freedom of association," Engel wrote.
And they mock historical incidents like the kidnapping and lynching of 14-year-old Emmett Till in 1955.
Yet, they dismiss any criticism as people taking them too seriously.
In one podcast, Engel read one critic’s reference to “Isker’s objections to the Civil Rights Act, his dismissiveness of the Emmett Till murder and the broader racial issues.”
Isker broke into prolonged laughter.
“Yeah, that's funny,” Engel agreed. “That's funny because that whole controversy was like entirely a meme controversy.”
“I know,” Isker answered. “It's like fun, man. Like, yeah, anyway.”
“You get in trouble for having fun,” Engel continued.
Chris Williamson said the two podcasters “have done nothing but disguise white supremacy in the guise of Christian nationalism.”
“So, call it what it is. It's white supremacy — nothing Christian about it," the Nashville pastor added.
For Black History Month earlier this year, Engel responded with his own celebration of what he called "Heritage History Month," holding up white supremacist Sam Francis as someone "who either shaped or defended our European and American heritage."
Among his writings, Francis suggested that "if whites wanted to do so, they could dictate a solution to the racial problem tomorrow," partly by "imposing fertility controls on non-whites." He called for "an uncompromising assertion of white will" in the country.
"It's repulsive that people would think of me and people who look like me in such degrading ways,” Pastor Williamson responded.
"And yet they claim to be Christian, Christian nationalists," NewsChannel 5 Investigates noted.
"Key word is ‘claim.’" Williamson answered.
'America for Americans'
Engel's distaste for people who don't look like him even extends to Vivek Ramaswamy. The former GOP presidential candidate's Hindu parents immigrated to the U.S. from India.
In one podcast, Engel expressed support for Ramaswamy’s ideas but declared that he was still “hesitant” about him, given his Indian heritage.
“I wish we had someone – a Heritage American – that was as passionate about, you know, our people," he added.
In a social media post, Engel also suggested Ramaswamy might be a “plant” who would “finish the conquest of America by the non-Western world.”
“Peoples like Indians, or South East (sic) Asians or Ecuadorians or immigrated Africans are the least capable of fitting in and should be sent home immediately,” Engel wrote in the post pinned to his X profile.
Similarly, Isker has posted, "Foreigners out, foreigners out, America for Americans, foreigners out."
He also appeared to endorse the idea that any foreign-born person granted citizenship since 1965 should be "subject to review," including whether they have worked "for Left causes."
"Deported for anti-Heritage American activities," Isker added.
Riggs said such talk appears to be motivated by what has been called the “browning of America.”
“Part of this is coming out of fear because we are moving closer and closer to that day where the White European Christian is the minority or the new minority when you add up all the other minorities,” the Franklin pastor added.
“So, they are losing power, and they are trying to stop that, as well."
Isker and Engel's rhetoric – “They hate White Christian men, period, end of story” – is sometimes reminiscent of the neo-Nazis who marched through Nashville earlier this year chanting, “They hate White men, deport every Mexican.”
And their controversial views are not limited to immigrants.
'I hate democracy'
“People who call me racist are innately incapable of comprehending the extent to which I detest the specific impact of college-educated White women on the culture of the world around me,” Engel said in a social media post.
He also celebrated the fact that he had never had a female boss.
“They’re obnoxious and emotional,” Engel wrote, saying he knows “how women are, especially working ones.” Men, he argued, “need to propagandize your wife, training her to like the things you do.”
Isker wrote: “You can have either women’s liberation or civilization, not both” and “no one can give me an argument why universal suffrage is good.”
Engel agreed, saying: “I think it’s politically best to have conservatives in power. And blacks and women vote liberal more often than White men.”
They reject any notion of Jewishness in modern society. Isker claimed in one post that “Jew and Gentile as categories of people has ceased to exist. There are now only Christians and unbelievers.” He followed up, “Jesus was the final, true Jew.”
And they are offended by the idea of mosques blasting out the Muslim call to prayer.
"That stuff cannot be happening in your country, right? — they have to go back," Isker said in a podcast.
Both have said that they “hate democracy.” Engel said democracy had "destroyed my way of life and my heritage and my freedoms."
On social media, Engel has expressed support for a “Protestant Franco or Appalachian Pinochet,” and he applauded Texas legislation “to make it virtually impossible for Democrats to ever win an election in the state.”
On LGBTQ issues, Engel has stated: “Gay people need to work on not being gay and then we can employ them. Pretty simple.”
And he has advocated “making the journalists concerned,” claimed that journalists are “barely human” and argued for a new Trail of Tears for “relocating the journalists.”
“My job is to normalize dissident right-wing talking points to the normies,” Engel wrote in a post on X. “This is the function of the vanguard; this is the strategy of instilling a counter-revolutionary ethos in Middle America.
"We will tear off Liberal scales from their eyes and radicalize Main Street.”
Engel also posted, "Many of us actually support the breakup and crushing of the United States regime, and we are willing to use political means to do it."
And Isker wrote, "The institutions matter. The mainline churches matter. One day we will retake them. By force if necessary."
Gaining influence in Tennessee
For the podcasters, the Jackson County project is not just about moving to a place where the people look and think like them. They also imagine creating a political force that has an impact on communities like Gainesboro, eventually extending their reach statewide."
“If you have towns that we're going to be building — where there are a lot of people that are very politically motivated and very well organized and are out-punching, you know, their weight class in terms of influence — you can have as much influence as one of the big cities in Tennessee,” Isker said.
Engel has already had "lunch with fellow patriots in Nashville" about ways to counter what he calls "the Great Replacement," and he promised a "multi-year project to put immense pressure on the Tennessee GOP and the governor on immigration issues specifically."
And on election night, the pair hosted a nearly nine-hour podcast from Gainesboro, bringing in some of the biggest names from the Christian nationalist community, including Dusty Deevers, Charles Haywood, Stephen Wolfe and William Wolfe.
As a potentially decisive Donald Trump victory became clear, William Wolfe celebrated the prospect for the authoritarian “Red Caesar” that some Christian nationalists hope will arise.
“If he does that then, you know, Red Caesar, mandate from heaven, rock and roll, let's go," said Wolfe, who served in senior roles in the first Trump administration.
During that podcast, developer Josh Abbotoy also made live appearances from an election watch party that he said his group hosted for the Jackson County Republican Party.
Now, Isker and Engel’s critics worry about where such efforts might lead the country.
"I don't want to be a doom and gloom type of person – my hope is still in Christ,” Riggs said. “But what I see on a practical level scares me if this kind of thing keeps growing and takes root in our country."
Williamson agreed.
"When I hear people talk about Jesus and their Jesus does not invite people to the table of grace, when their Jesus excludes people, they are not preaching the gospel of Jesus. That’s something else,” he added.
“I don't recognize that, and I don't want that kind of Jesus leading our nation."
Reached for comment through X, Isker and Engel both issued written statements, lashing out at NewsChannel 5 for even asking about their controversial beliefs. They ignored questions about the similarities between their views and the views of neo-Nazis and pointed to the November election as evidence that such concerns are meaningless.
“As the events of the past week have shown, the framing by corporate media of mainstream conservative thought as ‘Nazi’ and ‘white supremacist’ has been thoroughly rejected by the American people,” Isker said in a direct message.
Engel said his views “stem from American history” and that “it is love for, and duty to, America that animates the various genres of my cultural and political observations online.”
Andrew Isker's statement:
“As the events of the past week have shown, the framing by corporate media of mainstream conservative thought as “Nazi” and “white supremacist” has been thoroughly rejected by the American people. Because of histrionics like this, fewer and fewer people trust anything you say. A genuine journalist distinguishing himself from a hack Antifa activist would be concerned with the hundreds of thousands of patriotic, conservative Americans, like myself and CJay, who have left their blue states for refuge in Tennessee. That would be a story in the public interest, not my milquetoast social media posts.”
C.Jay Engel's statement:
“It is staggering that while the Democrats spent enormous sums of money and media resources hysterically calling Trump and his 70+ million voters Nazis – only to be handed the most devastating defeat in decades – that the media still refuses to reflect on the implications of their narrative failures. It was the media’s outlandish behavior, just as much as Harris herself, that was soundly defeated last week. The framing of your request for comments bears this out, and my response is that all of my views stem from American history – from Coolidge, Hoover, and Eisenhower’s immigration initiatives to Samuel Huntington’s moderate definition of the American ethos to Richard Nixon’s deep distrust of the Western journalist class. It is love for, and duty to, America and its people that animates the various genres of my cultural and political observations online – whether said in seriousness or obvious internet jest.”
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Do you have information that would help me with my investigation? Send me your tips: phil.williams@newschannel5.com
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